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Aluminium trollies

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13290
Printed Date: 22 Aug 19 at 4:04pm
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Topic: Aluminium trollies
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: Aluminium trollies
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 6:05pm
How much weight does an ally launching trolly save over the galvanised steel alternative?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 6:30pm
I never weighed mine, but aluminium alloy is about a third of the density of galvanised mild steel. Even allowing for wheels and things, and larger diameter tubes its surely going to be in the vague region of half.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 7:35pm
A bit annoying when they bob to the surface and float away from where you want them to be when you're recovering in a shore break.


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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 7:47pm
Good point Graeme...  Maybe add some lead corrector weights Wink

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by JimC

I never weighed mine, but aluminium alloy is about a third of the density of galvanised mild steel. Even allowing for wheels and things, and larger diameter tubes its surely going to be in the vague region of half.

Just googled it (I know, I need to get a life), 2.7 g/cm3 for ally and 7.7 g/cm3 for steel but you need about 40% more thickness for equivalent strength so about half sounds right. So how much does a Blaze trolly weigh? My guess is 20-25kg for steel so, say, 10-12 for ally...... A useful chunk of when pulling it up the slip (maybe 15% of the overall weight)


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by iGRF

A bit annoying when they bob to the surface and float away from where you want them to be when you're recovering in a shore break.

On the other hand donít lose them to the bottom, as you might at Queen Mary or Riva Del Garda ...


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by JimC

I never weighed mine, but aluminium alloy is about a third of the density of galvanised mild steel. Even allowing for wheels and things, and larger diameter tubes its surely going to be in the vague region of half.

Just googled it (I know, I need to get a life), 2.7 g/cm3 for ally and 7.7 g/cm3 for steel but you need about 40% more thickness for equivalent strength so about half sounds right. So how much does a Blaze trolly weigh? My guess is 20-25kg for steel so, say, 10-12 for ally...... A useful chunk of when pulling it up the slip (maybe 15% of the overall weight)

A lot of steel trolleys are far heavier than they need to be.
The Optiparts ali laser trolley weighs in at 11.5 kg inc wheels.
Unfortunately it weighs in at £250 or so...

Trident say their Laser Trolley is 26kg.


Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 9:54pm
One advantage of steel is that the scrap price is currently only 11p
Kg meaning it's more likely to be under your boat when you arrive on Sunday morning.


Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 9:56pm
This question was asked on the DZero FB page the other day and Rodney Cobb (Devoti Finn UK) replied, "Steel trolley is 33 Kgs and Aluminium trolley is 20 Kgs, based on Finn trolleys which have the same frame with different cradles."
 I'm sure you can extrapolate that result for whichever trolley size you are referring to.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 10:51pm
How do you get an Ali trolley to 20kg?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 11:07pm
So is a 13kg weight saving worth £200 on a boat/rig/trolly combination that weighs around 100kg?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 11:08pm
We are talking Finn's Rupert, the cradles and bow supports (and presumably Mr Cobb meant same cradle, different frame) probably have to be a tad more substantial than those for an International Moth. Its odd, I've had a bit of a trawl round, and no-on seems to publish the weight of their trolleys.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 19 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

So is a 13kg weight saving worth £200

I don't know what the actual saving was, but it was very significant on my IC. I also like floating trolleys for getting the boat on and off. In my case I was quite sure it was money well spent.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 6:50am
Originally posted by JimC

We are talking Finn's Rupert, the cradles and bow supports (and presumably Mr Cobb meant same cradle, different frame) probably have to be a tad more substantial than those for an International Moth. Its odd, I've had a bit of a trawl round, and no-on seems to publish the weight of their trolleys.


True. A genuinely light weight trolley would simply snap in 2 under a Finn.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 7:59am
Hi All
I asked Tony from Admiral for a weight and cost for a Phantom trolley comparison

Steel

£262

28kg

Aluminium

£387

19kg

Regards

Gordon




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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: bdu98252
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 10:19am
In the musto and 49er when you are trying to get sails up and launch on a windy day the weight in the trailer is pretty handy to keep the boat from flying off. I would not want an aluminium trolley in these boats as the weight saving does not get you reduced container costs or transport costs to any measurable value so what is the point. Maybe in a Finn where the boat is so heavy that you want to reduce weight on the shore but in the lighter boats it is not so obvious.  


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 11:13am
Maybe it's just I'm used to having old trolleys, but I always saw the key benefit of aluminium trolleys was more to do with longevity and lack of corrosion.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 11:28am
Originally posted by bdu98252

...so what is the point.

You'll find out as you get older...


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by bdu98252

...so what is the point.

You'll find out as you get older...

ClapClapClap

Too damn right!

I'm going to try this, take the sail, dagger, rudder and any loose bits out of the boat then pull it up a slipway. They probably weigh 10-15kg, the difference between a steel trolly and an ally one. The difference is more obvious in light boats, a Finn is still a big old lump on shore even with 10kg less trolly to haul up the slip.......


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by bdu98252

...so what is the point.

You'll find out as you get older...

ClapClapClap

Too damn right!

I'm going to try this, take the sail, dagger, rudder and any loose bits out of the boat then pull it up a slipway. They probably weigh 10-15kg, the difference between a steel trolly and an ally one. The difference is more obvious in light boats, a Finn is still a big old lump on shore even with 10kg less trolly to haul up the slip.......

Keeping your tyres inflated also makes a massive difference. The rolling resistance of soft trolley tyres is considerable.

I have got puncture proofs on a couple of mine, definitely worth the investment.


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Mar 19 at 2:05pm
Yes it really does make a huge difference Thumbs Up

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 10:17am
My H2 which when fully rigged weighs 74kg came on an ali trolley. Its a light boat on a light trolley and as a result can rock around alot when rigging it on the beach in a breeze and the floating trolley gets some getting used too but is really nice when sailing by yourself outside of normal sailing times on a lake as you can more easily launch by myself and easily get the trolley when I get back. Some guys with H2s at my club have a steel trolley and you really do notice it on the slip as a light boat on a light trolley is so easy to drag around!

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H2 #115


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 12:17pm
74kgs?

You need to redefine your weight description perception 'light' starts at <50kgs and goes down from there.

A Solution is fairly light, as is a Streaker, and the Farr 3.7, the Aero of course, even the D0. anything over 50 kilos is not light and anything 65 kgs or above is heavy. Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person, until recently almost the entire dinghy population was in breach of H&S guidelines.

Sorry to be a pedant, but weight has always been my biggest gripe about dinghy boats where it is unnecessary in this day and age.

And here's a thing, I recently asked to be quoted for a carbon decked streaker like my Farr 3.7.. guess what..

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person,

Handled by one person or lifted by one person? I just had a look at the HSE Risk assessment of pushing and pulling (RAPP) tool, and it seemed to me the biggest risk factors are not so much the weight as the environment - slopes, poor surface, obstructions etc). 50-100kg on two wheels scored amber risk, but the average dinghy park is red for obstacles.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by iGRF

74kgs?

You need to redefine your weight description perception 'light' starts at <50kgs and goes down from there.

A Solution is fairly light, as is a Streaker, and the Farr 3.7, the Aero of course, even the D0. anything over 50 kilos is not light and anything 65 kgs or above is heavy. Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person, until recently almost the entire dinghy population was in breach of H&S guidelines.

Sorry to be a pedant, but weight has always been my biggest gripe about dinghy boats where it is unnecessary in this day and age.

And here's a thing, I recently asked to be quoted for a carbon decked streaker like my Farr 3.7.. guess what..

Grumpf - the H2 FULLY RIGGED weighs 74kg. A basic Google search would indicate that the hull weight for the boats you mentioned is as follows:

Solution: 56kg
d0: 43kg
Streaker 48kg
Farr 50kg

With the exception of the d0 I am willing to bet you that all of those boats weigh more than 74kg when you add the mast, boom, sails, foils etc. Do try and read the post!


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H2 #115


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 3:01pm
Picked up on the Finn trolley discussion earlier and I am sure that you can guess that with the Finn being fairly heavy, some would say approaching the gross tonnage of a super tanker, there's a lot of weight in the moulded cradles. Most people who have traded up to an aluminium trolley are very pleased to have 13 Kgs less to move around.  Also my trolley dolly is very grateful Smile

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 3:07pm
H2 rig, foils etc weigh 20kg then, I suppose the Solution might be slightly heavier than H2 with it's tin rig boats, others should be lighter though.

TBH a couple of kilos make b99er all difference on or off the water........




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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 3:32pm
Sam the H2 hull is 56kg so yes the rest weighs in at 18kg. Bear in mind the spars are all carbon as are the foils I think you would find that most on that list are >75kg and anything with a tin mast or boom will be significantly heavier! I just think we all imagine that our boats are lighter than they really are.

The Farr for example - I assumed that as it is small and made for midgets that it would be light but the hull weighs 50kg!!!!


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H2 #115


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 4:06pm
The H2 is a lot more boat than the others mentioned. Are we back to complaints about boats being heavier than windsurfers again?

If so, then the Father Ted episode in the caravan may help?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by H2


The Farr for example - I assumed that as it is small and made for midgets that it would be light but the hull weighs 50kg!!!!

A genuine 50kg is still pretty light for a 12ft length, 5ft beam boat that is often built from wood. And its a measured weight, not a manufacturer's brochure weight.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 5:19pm
Well of course the windsurfers will be 'far away'.... far away ahead of the dinghies that is Wink

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by H2


The Farr for example - I assumed that as it is small and made for midgets that it would be light but the hull weighs 50kg!!!!

A genuine 50kg is still pretty light for a 12ft length, 5ft beam boat that is often built from wood. And its a measured weight, not a manufacturer's brochure weight.

The weights I quoted for the H2 are ones I have measured myself rather than something the maker told me Tongue


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H2 #115


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by Rupert

The H2 is a lot more boat than the others mentioned. Are we back to complaints about boats being heavier than windsurfers again?

If so, then the Father Ted episode in the caravan may help?

Yup - a hull which is 4.2m long and 1.95m wide. Same length as a Blaze and 55cm less beam.....but about a ton lighter!! (well actually about 20kg lighter for the hull only)


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H2 #115


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 5:36pm
How do ally trolleys fair with the stresses from the road when trailing?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by Rupert

The H2 is a lot more boat than the others mentioned. Are we back to complaints about boats being heavier than windsurfers again?

If so, then the Father Ted episode in the caravan may help?

Yup - a hull which is 4.2m long and 1.95m wide. Same length as a Blaze and 55cm less beam.....but about a ton lighter!! (well actually about 20kg lighter for the hull only)

And 40+kg lighter than my Spice (what it really weighs that is). Bear in mind an epoxy Blaze weighs around 50kg out of the moulds, 72kg is including racks, CB, all fittings and some lead. Tongue I'm assuming the H2 weight includes CB and fittings (and, hopefully some lead) so more like 16 kg (or roughly the weight of the racks and tramps) LOL.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 6:34pm
While we are on the subject when, if ever, is more weight an advantage in a racing boat? Stability? Momentum in the light (but probably more than made up for by the extra drag and lost acceleration)?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 6:48pm
Ballast may be advantageous. Weight, well, it depends what you call an advantage. Slow heavy sluggish boats may survive in wind and wave conditions where a fast boat will get the crew into trouble faster than they have the skill to get out of it again. That's all very well, but it means that the crew has to put up with the poor performance in sensible conditions.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 6:52pm
Yup - a hull which is 4.2m long and 1.95m wide. Same length as a Blaze and 55cm less beam.....but about a ton lighter!! (well actually about 20kg lighter for the hull only)

So perhaps we can look to you for a weight related adjustment to the handicap figures ... well that is surely what you are implying !   Must be 'fair'  .... Wink

BTW in reality Sam is not far out with his figures  but the wing system is around 7.8kg complete  ...... and without any doubt I'm definately keeping mine.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 6:54pm
There was some talk of the Aero's propensity for blowing away (both on the water and on it's trolly)

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person,

Handled by one person or lifted by one person? .

Well don't we have, on occasion, to do both?

I can't understand why anyone can be defensive about unnecessary extra weight, just because of build inefficiency. Let me remind y'all.. It's 2019, we're nearly 2020, carbon prices are at an all time low. I had not a heated, but an 'interesting' discussion over the fact the Streaker dinosaurs would almost certainly refuse my application for a carbon decked Streaker for next winter, not surprising I guess, since they can't even get to grips with a carbon mast, meanwhile I wonder how many ex Streaker sailors have gone for Aero 7s, which totally eradicates their 'expense' argument.

None of us are getting any younger, and the biggest ballache is not on the water, it's the humping about on and off the trailer/car roof/ garage floor and don't even talk to me about 21st century Snowflakes who can't even lift a spare wheel never mind change one.

If ever there were solid proof of all this it's the tremedous success of the Aero. It's light, that's it's principle USP.

Sorry, it's a fact get used to it, and as a 'weighty' class, innovate, adapt or die. Fundamental rules of existence I'm afraid.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 9:08pm
I was hugly excited by the Aero when it first appeared, not that I could afford a new boat of any flavour, but after 30+ years windsurfing I'm well aware of the penalties of light weight (Raceboards that were so fragile that at least a couple of people I know didn't race them at reservoirs 'cos the 'beach' was stony...... even though they were, technically, overweight) I decided that the Aero, while better in so may ways than a L@ser, was not for me. Like iGRF and his Solution I love the Blaze, it's not perfect (but what boat is) but it is light enough that I can pull it up a slipway after a hard days racing and it is a great boat to sail.

BTW Graeme, have you considered a Europe? 45kg, Carbon rig, any sailmaker you choose, incredibly tweakable and designed for lightweight sailors, what's not to like Wink


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 9:29pm
Fantastic thread drift! But I hate a floating trolley (Albacore) lake sailing



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Stewart


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 9:51pm
Plain or nylok nuts ? Plain nuts with a spring washer obviously. Main thing with aluminium is to insulate it from other metals.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 20 Mar 19 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by drifter

Fantastic thread drift! But I hate a floating trolley (Albacore) lake sailing


When I had a trolley that tended to float I part filled the tyres with water before inflating. A litre or so water in each made it just into negative buoyancy and easier to handle at launch and recovery.


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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 9:24am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Yup - a hull which is 4.2m long and 1.95m wide. Same length as a Blaze and 55cm less beam.....but about a ton lighter!! (well actually about 20kg lighter for the hull only)

So perhaps we can look to you for a weight related adjustment to the handicap figures ... well that is surely what you are implying !   Must be 'fair'  .... Wink

BTW in reality Sam is not far out with his figures  but the wing system is around 7.8kg complete  ...... and without any doubt I'm definately keeping mine.  

The blaze does also have a 10m sail whereas the H2 is at 9.3m plus the H2 width is all hull whereas the Blaze gets a significant amount of its beam from racks so the wetted area of the blaze is smaller than for the H2. The Blaze is faster over the water than the H2 across a range of conditions in my experience of racing against them. I can normally finish ahead of a decent proportion of the blaze helms on the water let alone on handicap at the Great Lakes events but the best guys (like YOU!) are quite a way ahead both on the water as well as on handicap. I think its about right the offset.


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H2 #115


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Noah


Originally posted by drifter

Fantastic thread drift! But I hate a floating trolley (Albacore) lake sailing

When I had a trolley that tended to float I part filled the tyres with water before inflating. A litre or so water in each made it just into negative buoyancy and easier to handle at launch and recovery.

There's some good thinking, why didn't I think of that? Clearly I'm losing it, of course, light bulb moment there sir, thanks, the problem is now solved.


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

BTW Graeme, have you considered a Europe? 45kg, Carbon rig, any sailmaker you choose, incredibly tweakable and designed for lightweight sailors, what's not to like†Wink
Yes, I had, but one for sale has never crossed my path, indeed it was an excellent Europe sailor who narrowly missed Olympic selection that taught me to completely change direction in my body language dinghy technique and re-apply everything I knew from Windsurfing and since then I've had my eye open, but sadly they seem to be getting increasingly tatty and few and far between. I think planning for the next five years (Always like to have a five year plan) I think next stop is likely a Streaker, as decrepitude advances, hence my early attempts to soften them up with carbonisation questions.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 10:03am
It's the tyres that wind me up, brand new and already full of cracks.


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 10:03am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

BTW Graeme, have you considered a Europe? 45kg, Carbon rig, any sailmaker you choose, incredibly tweakable and designed for lightweight sailors, what's not to like Wink
Yes, I had, but one for sale has never crossed my path, indeed it was an excellent Europe sailor who narrowly missed Olympic selection that taught me to completely change direction in my body language dinghy technique and re-apply everything I knew from Windsurfing and since then I've had my eye open, but sadly they seem to be getting increasingly tatty and few and far between. I think planning for the next five years (Always like to have a five year plan) I think next stop is likely a Streaker, as decrepitude advances, hence my early attempts to soften them up with carbonisation questions.

http://winner.es/files/PRICE2019_02_01_GBR.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://winner.es/files/PRICE2019_02_01_GBR.pdf



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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by drifter

Fantastic thread drift! But I hate a floating trolley (Albacore) lake sailing


When I had a trolley that tended to float I part filled the tyres with water before inflating. A litre or so water in each made it just into negative buoyancy and easier to handle at launch and recovery.

Ah, genius, spend £200 extra for a light weight trolly then fill the tyres with water to increase the weight Clap

Actually my steel trolly floats (well, the end with the wheels on does). Ermm


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 10:39am
To float or not to float trolleys, for me depends on the slope of the foreshore. Home sailing is steep and rocky, floating trolley every time, as otherwise the only bit that touches the trolley is the bow and the rest blows around.

Nice comfy, easy reservoir slip or sandy shallow foreshore then a sinker works best.



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Now proud owner of Mistral Div II prototype board


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 11:44am
Safest way in any Lee shore waves is to lift the boat out the water and onto the trolley. At events we have done this with Aero's Phantoms and Musto skiffs I think we also did it with B14's.
Light boats certainly make it easier. I have not launched yet with my new Ally trolley so don't know with solid wheels if it will float or not.



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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 11:52am
Originally posted by davidyacht


http://winner.es/files/PRICE2019_02_01_GBR.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://winner.es/files/PRICE2019_02_01_GBR.pdf


Wow, there's a great sales prevention list if ever I saw one. I guess that's what happens when a boat obtains a degree of 'official acceptance' on the international stage, ludicrous, that's enough to convince me to avoid at all costs, outrageous really.

There was me thinking my Farr was a bit pricey at 7 grand.

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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by drifter

Fantastic thread drift! But I hate a floating trolley (Albacore) lake sailing


When I had a trolley that tended to float I part filled the tyres with water before inflating. A litre or so water in each made it just into negative buoyancy and easier to handle at launch and recovery.

Ah, genius, spend £200 extra for a light weight trolly then fill the tyres with water to increase the weight Clap

Actually my steel trolly floats (well, the end with the wheels on does). Ermm

I hope that was tongue in cheek Sam - 'cos 'twas a steel trolley.


-------------
Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by drifter

Fantastic thread drift! But I hate a floating trolley (Albacore) lake sailing


When I had a trolley that tended to float I part filled the tyres with water before inflating. A litre or so water in each made it just into negative buoyancy and easier to handle at launch and recovery.

Ah, genius, spend £200 extra for a light weight trolly then fill the tyres with water to increase the weight Clap

Actually my steel trolly floats (well, the end with the wheels on does). Ermm

I hope that was tongue in cheek Sam - 'cos 'twas a steel trolley.

Of course it was, Big smile It's far to easy to upset people accidentally on t'net, I would never choose do so deliberately.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by davidyacht


http://winner.es/files/PRICE2019_02_01_GBR.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://winner.es/files/PRICE2019_02_01_GBR.pdf


Wow, there's a great sales prevention list if ever I saw one. I guess that's what happens when a boat obtains a degree of 'official acceptance' on the international stage, ludicrous, that's enough to convince me to avoid at all costs, outrageous really.

There was me thinking my Farr was a bit pricey at 7 grand.

You could cold mould a nice wooden one ...


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 3:20pm
.....plus the H2 width is all hull whereas the Blaze gets a significant amount of its beam from racks so the wetted area of the blaze is smaller than for the H2.

You will have to explain that one to me .... By implication if we were to take our Blaze wings OFF the Blaze (bear with me for a moment ! ) the surface area of a Blaze would then do what exactly ?  And in detail please say how as I'm obviously missing something here ?   LOL

Now if we were to leave our 'mind experiment' wings off and substitute them for a trapeze or sliding seat ... Can I then reduce my wetted  area further still ?! 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 3:26pm
I'd have said the waterline beam of Blaze and H2 is pretty similar, the blaze get's it's width by adding the racks the H2 with very flared topsides.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 5:28pm
Cirrus - what Sam said except I disagree that the waterline beam is similar. Park the boats next to each other on the ramp and you will immediately see what I mean!

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H2 #115


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 5:43pm
The Blaze would never be a good example of a low wetted surface hull, despite the extra righting moment of wings.

I suspect in falling over whilst fetching the trolley terms, the blaze hull is a pretty stable one.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 5:53pm
Blaze is definitely not a low wetted area design, you are right, and it is indeed very stable though it will tend to sit on it's leeward rack if left unattended in any wind.

Originally posted by H2

Cirrus - what Sam said except I disagree that the waterline beam is similar.

But that's all I said didn't I?

Park the boats next to each other on the ramp and you will immediately see what I mean!

Given the lack of H2s at either of my clubs that's not likely in the near future but  looking at photos online I'd stick by my statement, with the caveat that H2 looks a little narrower at the WL.



-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 6:22pm
The 'hull' can be as wide as you like ... with wings or a 'flare' in the overall hull shape but  you do not sail with it fully immersed in the wet stuff. 

Wings have no effect on waterline (immersed) width !! ... and if you are sailing (flat) neither will any hull flare.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

The 'hull' can be as wide as you like ... with wings or a 'flare' in the overall hull shape but  you do not sail with it fully immersed in the wet stuff. 

Wings have no effect on waterline (immersed) width !! ... and if you are sailing (flat) neither will any hull flare.

My point exactly sir Big smile


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 6:52pm
    "It's the tyres that wind me up, brand new and already full of cracks."

Anyway, trollies. Don't buy new trolley tyres if you can help it; simply fit your old part worn 8" road tyres much tougher so more resistant to punctures and a better quality material to begin with.
Wink Works for me. 


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by Do Different

    "It's the tyres that wind me up, brand new and already full of cracks."

Anyway, trollies. Don't buy new trolley tyres if you can help it; simply fit your old part worn 8" road tyres much tougher so more resistant to punctures and a better quality material to begin with.
Wink Works for me. 


I do exactly that too. With a light boat as an additional benefit punctures are not that critical the sidewalls are often stiff enough that you don't need any air in the tires.

My current trolly is made from a broken mast and a broken boom with bits of a broken tiller as a handle. All Ally held together with some Glass and very light.




-------------
If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 9:53pm
About a hundred years ago I had a combi trailer for a fireball. It had proper mini wheels and tires from a scrapped mini. I used it for about a year before getting round to replacing the completely flat tires. It rode much better flat than inflated.
Mind you, in those days we weren't allowed to go faster than 40 on ordinary roads and 50 on the motorway. Man with red flag had gone by then


Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 21 Mar 19 at 9:55pm
Dunlop SP Sport radials as I remember. Held the road better than the car


Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 2:55am
Originally posted by iGRF

<snip>. Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person, until recently almost the entire dinghy population was in breach of H&S guidelines.

.

what a surprise ...  wrong as usual ... 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 9:46am
Originally posted by NicolaJayne


Originally posted by iGRF

<snip>. Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person, until recently almost the entire dinghy population was in breach of H&S guidelines.

.

what a surprise ...† wrong as usual ...†


Why of course I'm wrong I'm a man.

It was reduced to 25 kgs some time recently, not only am I wrong I'm living in the past.

Which makes using aluminium trolleys with their tyres filled with water all the more relevant don't you think?

I guess at least with a Miracle there are two of you, you're almost certainly a Miracle sailor spotting how wrong I am, they do it all the time where I sail.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 11:30am
Which makes using aluminium trolleys with their tyres filled with water all the more relevant don't you think?

Makes no difference to the trolley weight when you haul it around on land either does it !  er .... wait a minute ...is there not a tiny flaw with this 'logic' somewhere.  Somebody explain why I should pay extra for a 'lighter' alloy trolley and then drag a few extra kg of water around with me....  Last time I checked a kg of water weighted the same as a kg of steel or lead.... LOL 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 1:16pm
Cirrus,
You are forgetting the lee bow principal


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 2:24pm
Well the water is neutral at the most difficult part of the haul, the loaded boat sometimes with even more water swilling in the bilges and ole Sam Spoons must be Hercules if he thinks a Blaze is light they are definitely in the category marked overweight to the point of dinghy obesity.

There are only very few 'light' dinghies. Aero, D0, Solution, some Phantoms, Moths, Streaker, Farr 3.7, have I missed any? I don't think so. Maybe the new Hartley Supersofa, not seen one.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 2:58pm
Hi Graham
Sorry you need to rethink that the Phantom is 61kg inc centreboard and all the fitting but without mast rudder (Removable items). Having just flipped my new boat over it might be a bit lighter than that time for some lead backing on fittings!
Gordon
1465 Sea Creature


-------------
Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 4:31pm
Well my chums Phantom doesn't 'feel' like 61kgs it 'feels' lighter than my Solution when you move it around the beach, it was a Vandercraft version, don't know what they claim to weigh, but it's a devil site less than a Blaze and that's for sure.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 5:53pm
...... but it's a devil site less than a Blaze and that's for sure.

Just as well you don't have one anymore then - nobody likes to imagine you still struggling with one off the water !  ... or for that matter 'on' the water from what we heard.  LOL


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 22 Mar 19 at 6:23pm
Balance on the trolley makes a big difference.


Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 12:11am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by NicolaJayne


Originally posted by iGRF

<snip>. Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person, until recently almost the entire dinghy population was in breach of H&S guidelines.

.

what a surprise ...  wrong as usual ... 


Why of course I'm wrong I'm a man.

It was reduced to 25 kgs some time recently, not only am I wrong I'm living in the past.

Which makes using aluminium trolleys with their tyres filled with water all the more relevant don't you think?

I guess at least with a Miracle there are two of you, you're almost certainly a Miracle sailor spotting how wrong I am, they do it all the time where I sail.


There  is no absolute limit on weight to be  lifted  by one person.   it is routine for one person to handle  up to 2500kg  loads  in the workplace without  powered mechanical  assistance   -  the rated capacity of many  'manual'  pallet  trucks ... 


Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 7:57am
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by NicolaJayne


Originally posted by iGRF

<snip>. Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person, until recently almost the entire dinghy population was in breach of H&S guidelines.

.

what a surprise ...  wrong as usual ... 


Why of course I'm wrong I'm a man.

It was reduced to 25 kgs some time recently, not only am I wrong I'm living in the past.

Which makes using aluminium trolleys with their tyres filled with water all the more relevant don't you think?

I guess at least with a Miracle there are two of you, you're almost certainly a Miracle sailor spotting how wrong I am, they do it all the time where I sail.


There  is no absolute limit on weight to be  lifted  by one person.   it is routine for one person to handle  up to 2500kg  loads  in the workplace without  powered mechanical  assistance   -  the rated capacity of many  'manual'  pallet  trucks ... 

Well, looking forward to your demonstration of this on a sloping shingle beach.......


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 5:17pm
Well I'll tell that to the baggage handlers next time I travel they are restricted to 25 kgs, it was 32kgs, and once upon a time, I did run a warehouse where, guess what?

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by Pierre

Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by NicolaJayne


Originally posted by iGRF

<snip>. Given that Health and Safety refuses to permit anything over 32kgs being handled by one person, until recently almost the entire dinghy population was in breach of H&S guidelines.

.

what a surprise ...  wrong as usual ... 


Why of course I'm wrong I'm a man.

It was reduced to 25 kgs some time recently, not only am I wrong I'm living in the past.

Which makes using aluminium trolleys with their tyres filled with water all the more relevant don't you think?

I guess at least with a Miracle there are two of you, you're almost certainly a Miracle sailor spotting how wrong I am, they do it all the time where I sail.


There  is no absolute limit on weight to be  lifted  by one person.   it is routine for one person to handle  up to 2500kg  loads  in the workplace without  powered mechanical  assistance   -  the rated capacity of many  'manual'  pallet  trucks ... 

Well, looking forward to your demonstration of this on a sloping shingle beach.......


Thank you for demonstrating your ignorance  here Pierre 

you appear to have made a very large conflation  here. 






Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Well I'll tell that to the baggage handlers next time I travel they are restricted to 25 kgs, it was 32kgs, and once upon a time, I did run a warehouse where, guess what?

I work in a warehouse . With anything over 32 kg we are requested to get help but not restricted to doing this . Therefore as we are not given back the time for getting help , everyone lifts them on their own. And this is not in a little back street company, this is in the main warehouse of multi national car manufacturer. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 8:01pm
Pipe lagging or a cradle ?
Would a cradle be used for wooden or plastic boats ?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by zeon


Originally posted by iGRF

Well I'll tell that to the baggage handlers next time I travel they are restricted to 25 kgs, it was 32kgs, and once upon a time, I did run a warehouse where, guess what?

I work in a warehouse . With anything over 32 kg we are requested to get help but not restricted to doing this . Therefore as we are not given back the time for getting help , everyone lifts them on their own. And this is not in a little back street company, this is in the main warehouse of multi national car manufacturer.†


When you can't work due to back issues, do they tell you you should have got help lifting?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 9:38pm
https://www.beckettandco.co.uk/manual-handling-faq-weight/


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 11:07pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by zeon


Originally posted by iGRF

Well I'll tell that to the baggage handlers next time I travel they are restricted to 25 kgs, it was 32kgs, and once upon a time, I did run a warehouse where, guess what?

I work in a warehouse . With anything over 32 kg we are requested to get help but not restricted to doing this . Therefore as we are not given back the time for getting help , everyone lifts them on their own. And this is not in a little back street company, this is in the main warehouse of multi national car manufacturer. 


When you can't work due to back issues, do they tell you you should have got help lifting?

Spot on Rupert. That is the world we like in Confused


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 12:29am
Any employer will tell you, we live in a litigious H&S age, where staff have all sorts of rights to 'injury at work' claims and we have insurances and have to have risk assessments, lines drawn between what can be lfited with and without mechanical assistance and trust me, you are asking for trouble insisting on staff lifting stuff over the guidelines. Certain things have to be palletised and moved with pallet trucks and fork lifts etc.

Why are we even arguing this, it's a matter of public record, it's also a fact that the maximum weight baggage handlers could lift was reduced from 32 kilos to 25.

The reason it doesn't affect us as dinghy sailors is because we do it voluntarily and nobody forces us to do it, but I wouldn't want to be the owner of some plastic tub operating sailing school and or holiday outfit or face the insurance cost.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 6:22am
The trolley is mechanical assistance though. A well balanced trolley can make the boat almost weightless to lift and decent wheels (not that any seem to exist) will reduce how hard it is to pull (or push). Empty road bases, on the other hand, are back breakingly heavy to lift.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 7:19am
Originally posted by Peaky

The trolley is mechanical assistance though. A well balanced trolley can make the boat almost weightless to lift and decent wheels (not that any seem to exist) will reduce how hard it is to pull (or push). Empty road bases, on the other hand, are back breakingly heavy to lift.

Exactly Peaky, having injured myself pulling a boat out of the water the trolley makes all the difference. You are not 'lifting' the boat but moving it around. 


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 8:11am
A jockey wheel on my trailer and a wheeled sailing bag have meant I can carry on sailing. And a well balanced launching trolley.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 9:45am
The pursuit of ever lighter craft has kept me in the game.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 9:58am
iGRF, you need an inflatable.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 10:10am
No, I will need a full carbon streaker one day.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 10:57am
Lightbulb moment !!!

Carbon trolley, with all orifices sealed - fill the frame and the tyres with Hydrogen. It'll lift itself  Thumbs Up 


-------------
Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 11:26am
Helium, hydrogen is an H&S risk Wink 

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 1:00pm
You would think all sealed cavities on planes would be vacuums where strong enough and helium elsewhere.


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 2:37pm
If you think a Blaze is heavy, try helping with a YW Dayboat - just the centreboard (9.5mm steel) weighs as much as some boats and the total weight without trolley is minimum 204.3 kilos. Makes even the Albacore a lightweight in comparison!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Mar 19 at 10:27am
Graeme thinks anything over about 31 kg is heavy........

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



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