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Port layline saga

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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Port layline saga
    Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 7:16pm
Today I was upwind on what I hoped was the port layline approx 3 lengths from the mark. I had to give way to a starboard tack boat heading for the same mark, I tacked under and was then the leeward boat and 1/2 a length ahead. Maybe I should have gone behind but this could have left me under the mark. 

As I am now the Leeward boat I have right of way. I was keen to tack back on port and head for the mark. The windward boat showed no sign of wanting to tack and go for the mark, there were other boats near the mark but they were making their way around. The wind was light and very shifty.

I asked the windward boat if it was going to tack, it replied that it wouldn't be able to make the mark and wanted to go a bit further on Starboard. I didn't agree and was keen to tack. It then got slightly messy due to a windshift and there was a very gentle coming together. I got told to do a penalty turn, so I did.

Discuss!


Edited by epicfail - 30 Aug 20 at 7:17pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 7:18pm
Port or Stbd rounding? Sounds like Stbd from the description but best to be sure.


Edited by JimC - 30 Aug 20 at 7:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 7:29pm
The classic text book play (assuming windward mark to be rounded to starboard)) is to keep your line but slow down to let the Stb boat past, reminding him not to tack in your water, and then continue on on port round the mark. The less sporting way it to try once you tacked and were to leeward of him would to try and push him off by luffing (slowly) up to almost head to wind. The downside to that, is it's easy to be mistaken as tacking in his water or not giving him room to keep clear.

Edited by KazRob - 30 Aug 20 at 7:30pm
OK 2139 & 2148
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 7:46pm
So, Him (H) and You (Y).
Deal with ROW first.

Initially H has ROW. Y tacks, Y is leeward and has ROW. Neither boat changes tack, so when there's contact Y has ROW.

OK, what limitations are there on ROW boat?
Part B
RRS 15 says Y must initially give H room to keep clear, which was done.
RRS 16 says Y must give H room to keep clear if she changes course.
RRS 17 doesn't apply.
Part C
RRS 18 applies since at least one boat is in the zone and no condition in 18.1 applies.
Therefore 18.2 means that Y has to give H mark room.
Assuming it is indeed Stb rounding 18.3 tacking in the zone doesn't apply.
That means (definition) H is entitled to room to tack once she can make the mark after the tack.

So Y has ROW, but H is entitled to mark room. So its all in the detail of what happened in the messy bit with the windshift. Who changed course, or did both?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 8:13pm
It was stb rounding.

After I tacked under and was leeward I did luff up hoping to make H tack. We were still about two lengths from the mark and I was sure we had gone beyond the layline. H didn't tack so I straightened up. After that it's a bit hard to describe accurately. We both ended up eventually tacking to port well after the time I considered sensible. H had trouble completing the tack for some reason (shifty wind near an island of trees) I'm now the windward boat happy to go for the mark only to find H inside me having a struggle to get through the tack. I put a hand out to keep the boats apart. All very slow motion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 9:17pm
If you are only two boat lengths from the mark isnít H inside and therefore entitled to room regardless of being windward boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 9:44pm
I'm clearly no expert hence the question. But assuming I don't have right of way can the ROW boat make no attempt to round the mark in an efficient manner and as a result generally get in the way of my attempt to do so? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 10:38pm
> Can the ROW boat make no attempt?

Basically yes, there is no requirement to sail a proper course. It could be said that there's a general principle that a ROW boat can sail where she likes provided she doesn't make it impossible for the other boat to keep clear. An important concept to get across is the difference between right of way and an entitlement to room.

See case 9 in the case book. (If you're not familiar with that its a download from the World sailing website. Its a list of examples of the rules in application).

By the sound of things H delayed tacking until they were confident they could make the mark. You couldn't tack before then because of rule 13.
Once both boats had tacked H had right of way *and* mark room. Where it would get sticky would be if H had not completed their tack and was not on a close hauled course.

But on the whole I think you probably were right to take a penalty.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 10:59pm
Ok that makes sense. I'll aim to avoid putting myself in that situation again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 20 at 11:59pm

Your scenarios goes through quite a few stages where the rules may apply differently, so lets break them up, using a diagram Y, Yellow, You, B, Blue Him.
Originally posted by epicfail

It was stb rounding.



Originally posted by epicfail

Today I was upwind on what I hoped was the port layline approx 3 lengths from the mark. I had to give way to a starboard tack boat heading for the same mark, I tacked under and was then the leeward boat and 1/2 a length ahead.


@1 and @2 in the diagram.

Originally posted by epicfail

Maybe I should have gone behind but this could have left me under the mark.


Tactics comment: but that would have left you possibly able to shoot the mark, to leeward, inside, with all the rights in the world, or, if you had to tack, with starboard tack advantage on B.

As it is, you have sailed yourself into a pin-out.

Originally posted by epicfail

As I am now the Leeward boat I have right of way. I was keen to tack back on port and head for the mark. The windward boat showed no sign of wanting to tack and go for the mark, there were other boats near the mark but they were making their way around. The wind was light and very shifty.

I asked the windward boat if it was going to tack, it replied that it wouldn't be able to make the mark and wanted to go a bit further on Starboard. I didn't agree and was keen to tack.


As JimC has described, up to here, Y is right of way boat, but B is entitled to mark-room, which, from 2 BL away from the mark is room to sail to the mark (Definitions: Mark-Room (a)).

If you really are both past the layline (and are able to convince a protest committee of that), then B is sailing away from the mark, not sailing to the mark, not sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled and therefore will not be exonerated under rule 21 if she fails to keep clear of Y.

Y is exposed if she uses this aggressively: a protest committee might apply the last point of certainty, namely that B was NOT above the layline, and conclude that she was sailing to the mark, within her mark-room and entitled to exoneration. If Y luffs, bears away to avoid contact, and protests, this is a win/don't win protest for Y, so she can do that with safety, but if there is contact, it becomes a win/lose protest with Y at risk of penalty if she loses the protest.

However, you go on to say that there were a few more things happening before contact occurred.

Originally posted by epicfail

It then got slightly messy due to a windshift and there was a very gentle coming together. I got told to do a penalty turn, so I did.


Originally posted by epicfail


After I tacked under and was leeward I did luff up hoping to make H tack. We were still about two lengths from the mark and I was sure we had gone beyond the layline. H didn't tack so I straightened up.


@3 and @4 in the diagram.

Originally posted by epicfail

After that it's a bit hard to describe accurately. We both ended up eventually tacking to port well after the time I considered sensible.


@5 in the diagram.

Boats are in the zone, on same tack, B overlapped inside, rules 18.2(b) not applying so B is entitled to mark-room to sail to the mark, which she is doing (by changing course to do so), and B will be exonerated if she breaks a right of way rule, or rule 15 or 16 (rule 21).

Originally posted by epicfail

H had trouble completing the tack for some reason (shifty wind near an island of trees) I'm now the windward boat happy to go for the mark only to find H inside me having a struggle to get through the tack. I put a hand out to keep the boats apart. All very slow motion.


If B had not yet reached her close hauled course when contact occurred, she was required to keep clear (rule 13), but is exonerated for that breach because she was sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled.

If B had reached her close hauled course when contact occurred, then she was leeward right of way boat, and it is Y, overlapped to windward, that has failed to keep clear and broken rule 11.

There was contact. Even though there was no damage or injury and a boat may be exonerated under rule 14(b), we must consider rule 14.

I think that Y could have avoided contact throughout: there was nothing (except a massive tactical disadvantage) to stop her from sailing higher and giving B a wider berth. Y did not avoid contact with B when it was reasonably possible to do so. Y broke rule 14.

If the contact occurred before B reached her close hauled course (and was required to keep clear under rule 13), Y, the right of way boat shall be exonerated for breaking rule 14 (rule 14(b)).

If contact occurred after B reached her close hauled course, then Y is neither the right of way boat nor entitled to room, and is thus not exonerated for breaking rule 14.

I don't think B could have done anything to avoid contact once Y was coming down on her. B did not break rule 14. If this is wrong, and she could have avoided contact, she was a boat entitled to mark-room, and is exonerated for breaking rule 14 under rule 14(b).

Edited by Brass - 31 Aug 20 at 1:29am
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